Friday, November 04, 2005

The Paris Riots...

Okay, so last night I read an article regarding how many Muslim/African women living in Paris are essentially treated as prisoners in the low-income areas where they live. In the United States, we'd probably dismissively refer to these areas as the ghetto, but in France, they are called "cities" or something.

Anyway, apparently the French authorities pay groups to "take care of" their neighborhoods. What this perpetuates is an air of approval for the out-dated "Muslim" customs that are allowed in Northern Africa and the Middle East. (Sidenote: I put Muslim in quotes because a true Muslim isn't for hurting others). What happens? Well, women aren't allowed to get jobs and many of them are beaten, forced into polygamous marriages and also subjected to honor killings or beatings. Additionally, many aren't completing their education because the French government doesn't allow headscarves at school, but the Muslim heads of household won't let their daughters/wives/nieces/etc... go into public without a head scarf.

It makes me ill knowing this type of thing happens anywhere, but I am further saddened that it is occurring in a country that considers itself civilized. Does America have clean hands? No, but that doesn't excuse any violation of human rights, no matter where it occurs.

Which brings me to these riots that are still going on at the outskirts of Paris. A quick geography lesson: the riots are occurring on the outskirts because the city itself is almost surrounded by these "cities." So essentially these people, like the people in Watts or in Compton after the Rodney King verdict, are destroying their own neighborhoods because they are trapped and corralled by the police. Should they be rioting? No...but they're angry, they're frustrated, they're oppressed and that all comes together to create an explosive situation.

The riots began when two young men were electrocuted. Both men were in their teens and they were Northern Africans and Muslim. Excuse the pun, but this was the spark that set off all this anger...the pot finally boiled over. Prior to the riots, there was much anger by the Muslim population due to their immigration status, poverty, declining education standards in their areas, joblessness and a failure by the French society to accept or integrate the millions of African and Muslim immigrants it has accepted in the last twenty years.

This is a complex issue that won't be fixed anytime soon. However, "every journey begins with a single step." If France started accepting and recognizing Muslims, instead of forcing them to "look and act" like everybody else, it may smooth over things. That doesn't mean accept some of the atrocities that were carried over to France by these extreme factions within the Muslim faith (i.e. honor killings, women as property, etc...). You can still recognize difference while all following the law. There are basic human rights that are being violated by both groups, and that needs to end. Equality isn't making sure neighbor is like neighbor. It's letting your neighbor know that you're different, but no better or no worse.

(jumps off soap box and gets back to the legaling)

17 Comments:

Blogger Bill Fleming said...

(Sidenote: I put Muslim in quotes because a true Muslim isn't for hurting others)

Good post Skogg, and for the most part, I agreee with everything you said. But I do have to dispute your above assertion. Have you read the Qur'an?

Fri Nov 04, 09:56:00 AM MST  
Blogger Bill Fleming said...

Perhaps those people are being oppressed from both sides but I think its fair to ask, hey, do you want to be liberated and French, or not? Also, that thing about the hats sounds fishy to me. Like propaganda maybe.

Fri Nov 04, 09:59:00 AM MST  
Blogger Sarah said...

But the Bible, if read verbatim, also promotes slavery and women as the lower class, yet Christians (for the most part) don't support either of those. So yes, the Qur'an might refer to certain aspects that are a bit more violent, but we must look at the time that chapter was written and the context of the text.

Owl, what do you mean about propaganda? Please elaborate.

Fri Nov 04, 10:22:00 AM MST  
Blogger Bill Fleming said...

I hear you Skogg, but we don't do all those things
it says we have to in the Bible. The Muslim women have to. In their schools, all they get to do is memorize the scriptures.

To see more of what I'm takling read this great new book, "The End of Faith" by Sam Harris. It's very, very good.

By the way, the Qur'ran is not just a bit more violent, it is totally more violent, and there is virtually no moderate language.

As far as propaganda goes, it's not the French who are abusing these women, it is their own culture. The headscarves thing just sounds like an excuse for the men to raise hell to me. My guess is, the French could decide headscarves were ok and it wouldn't change a thing. To focus on headscarves and ignore the real problem seems nuts to me.

It's like a Christian Scientist mom suing a doctor because her son died when she herself was the one who said he couldn't have the decessary drugs and therapy to make him well.

Fri Nov 04, 12:40:00 PM MST  
Blogger Sarah said...

decessary = stacked

I don't think you can compare your Christian Science hypo to wearing headscarves.

The decision to not give a child necessary medical treatment does not compare to an individual's belief that they should cover their head.

I understand that there are some statements/actions that people put under the heading of "religious choice" that cannot be streamlined into a civil society (i.e. honor killings...although those aren't supported by the Muslim faith as a whole, preventing medical treatment, sacrificing people a/o animals to the Gods).

However, when there are things that can be streamlined (i.e. headscarves, yarmukles (sp??), making available kosher meals), I think they should be streamlined.

The headscarf issue is only part of the problem. However, why keep that as part of the problem when it's easily fixed, and the continuation of disallowing women to wear headscarves in school harms them educationally (even though the government is not wholly to blame for keeping the women out of school) and symbolically sends a message that they are not part of society?

That's what I'm saying.

As for the comment about the Qur'an being more violent, I agree that the wording is stronger. I also do not support the President's statement that Islam is a religion of peace. I also do not think that Christianity is a religion of peace. Look at the Christian history...crusades, Inquisition, Protestants v. Catholics, Baptists v. Everybody Else...etc.. There are also portions of the Old Testament where Moses condemns an army for allowing women, children and animals to be spared with their lives.

However, that being said, it's not the book that is violent, but rather the people who choose to interpret the words. Example: Bible - Pro-Life Crazies who believe the good book allows them to kill the doctors and everybody else in the doctor's abortion clinic building.

What the Qur'an is prone to is twisting of words. Unfortunately, because those words are harsh, the interpretations are equally harsh.

Yes, the Qur'an mentions war, but war is not only fought with weapons. War of Faith. War of Words. War of Roses.

To summarize, I do agree that the Qur'an, if read with a certain interpretation, is incredibly violent and promotes physical violence. However, I think that you can make the same argument with the Bible, yet most people would not say Christians are as violent as Muslims.

Enough babbling. Good debate, Owl.

Fri Nov 04, 02:07:00 PM MST  
Blogger EThunk said...

Okay, I can't help myself, I just have to chime in.

I don’t pretend to understand much of anything about Islam, the Qur'an or any other Middle Eastern issue (nor does any other Western trained mind except, of course, BushCo). And as usual, that’s not even going to slow me from adding my 2 cents to the discussion.

Sure, the residents of the Paris ‘suburbs’ are impoverished emigrants…most are African blacks, under educated, under employed etc. As a consequence they live in the slums, and just like the residents of the slums of Detroit, New York, LA or Memphis, they are angry past the point of eruption. But there is more afoot here. They are also Muslim. France (and most of Europe) said to these folks, ‘Come on in and assimilate. You’re welcome here.” And they said, “Assimilate? What’s that?” Muslims believe down to the bottom of their souls that the right to their own cultural and religious identity is the beginning and ending to ‘the meaning of life’. Assimilation is cultural rape. It means renouncing ones identity.

So on one hand you have the ‘Paris (Brussels, Hamburg etc.) Muslim Islands’ that surround Paris, on the other you have the great-Western-oppressive-minds saying, ‘Just be like us and everything will be okay; and oh, if you don’t want to be like us…well buddy, here’s our arsenal of weapons.’ Throw in thousands of unemployed young, hot-blooded men….oooh la la,

Most European nations believe in a STRICT division between church and state. (That’s where the anti-scarves-in-school edict came from…no big Christian crosses or yamakas either.) Many, if not most, Muslims believe that the faith drives all, no matter if in Paris, Jakarta or Mexico City. Theirs is a powerful force creating an even more powerful division of beliefs and loyalties between the us-ins and the them-ins. It is an important and interesting conflict that deserves a great deal of though and discussion, hopefully from both sides.



yuuyd...way too fun for such a serious post.

Fri Nov 04, 05:35:00 PM MST  
Blogger Bill Fleming said...

Ok, first some fun. Believe it or not, the word for the little skull cap that Jewish men wear is spelled "yarmulke." And yes, we Gentiles pronounce that "yamaka"! Go figure.

Ethunk, you are onto it alright. Paris has the largest population of Muslims of Muslems of any city in the western world.

The clash of ideologies is inevitable and more and more it's starting to seem like moderation and tolerence of dangerous belief systems is not the answer.

If we are ever to live in a sane world we are going to have to start demanding evidence from people who claim to know the truth.

We have to understand that belief is not a "private" matter, that people's beliefs determine their behavior, and that some beliefs are downright dangerous.

If a kid wears a Nazi flag or a KKK hood to school he should expect as a minimum to be challenged for that behavior and to be question as to the meaning of his attire. I would consider it irresponsible of the school's administrator to just look the other way.

This is a time of great Muslim uprising and religious furor. Muslims fanatics don't necessarily hate us, they just believe that its their religious duty to kill us and that they will be celebrated by their people and get to take 70 of them to heaven if they sacrifice their lives in the process.

They also think that the moderates and secularists in their faith are infidels along with the rest of us, and that they too should be killed if they don't at least put on a semblence of being true muslims. Again, they don't do this out of hate.

They do it out of fear that they burn in hell if they don't. I will say then that if we all converted to Muslim, the terrorism would stop. They are a messianic faith, not a demonic one.

afi

Sat Nov 05, 09:32:00 AM MST  
Blogger EThunk said...

Here is an interesting spin on the situation.

Sat Nov 05, 04:15:00 PM MST  
Blogger Bill Fleming said...

No to send everyone racing away from this safe homey blog where we all belong, but I you want to, hop over to Mt. Blogmore for a minute or two and scroll down to 11/2/2005 "What's a Catholic."

There you will find the Owl in discusson with some very interesting folks over matters very much related to this post here.

I especially enjoy the person who posts as "Sem Away From Home" a guy who is studying to become a priest. Notice how his thoughts are closer to ours than the raving lunitics who pretend to know everything about who god is and how we all should be thinking.

Its a good snapshot of the kind of healthy debate we should be having with the fundamentalists, I think.

Sun Nov 06, 07:10:00 AM MST  
Blogger Bill Fleming said...

I'll just add one more thought to this thread. Actually, it's Kris Kristofferson's thought, not mine.

Regarding the riots in Paris, I think both sides are showing the world – yet one more time – that "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

Sun Nov 06, 12:18:00 PM MST  
Blogger Sarah said...

Good use of the Joplin/Kristofferson lyrics, Owl.

Mad props.

Mon Nov 07, 07:55:00 AM MST  
Blogger EThunk said...

So what if it is a terrorist attack? The following is from http://www.debka.com, an Israeli news source.

"Saturday, Nov. 5, as the disorders went into their second week, the French prosecutor-general Yves Bot said he had detected an organized hand and a strategy behind the riots. Witnesses reported vehicles without number-plates distributing petrol bombs. A fuel bomb factory was in fact discovered Sunday in Paris with 150 bottles and gallons of gasoline ready to distribute to the bands of arsonists. Also found there were masks to hide rioters’ faces. In Clichy-sour-Bois, where the accidental electrocution of two teenagers in flight from the police ignited the first protests, residents said: This is just the beginning.

There are plenty of indications that the riots are not simply spontaneous outbursts of frustration by disadvantaged youths of North and black African descent, but centrally organized mayhem, an “intifada” activated by Muslim networking.

...The controlling hand, far from being legitimate Muslim authority, is beginning to emerge as the very organization that has for several years been recruiting young fighters in French Muslim ghettos fight al Qaeda’s wars against the West in Afghanistan, Bosnia, Iraq and other sectors.

On February 20, 2004, DEBKA-Net-Weekly and DEBKAfile were first to reveal the extent of al Qaeda’s penetration of West Europe. They turned up French intelligence statistics which estimated that “al Qaeda had recruited in France between 35,000 and 45,000 fighters and was organizing them in military-style units. They meet regularly for training in the use of weapons and explosives, combat tactics and indoctrination and are controlled from local and district command centers under the organization’s national French command.”

“In Germany, Al Qaeda’s numbers are estimated at 25,000 to 30,000 men.”


...pretty scary stuff, especially since the riots have now spread to Belgium.

Mon Nov 07, 09:45:00 AM MST  
Blogger Bill Fleming said...

Exactly, Ethunk. That's what I've been trying to say. It's jihad. I'm willing to bet on it. And it's a huge problem, not the least of which is our own unwillingness to look at it that way. I had the only really serious argument I've ever had with Harold Storsve over just this topic.
We're entirely too willing to blame things like this on ourselves, and the terrorists know it.

Mon Nov 07, 10:29:00 AM MST  
Blogger Bill Fleming said...

One more time, let's all read "The End of Faith" by Sam Harris, and hope it's not too late. You all know that I'm pretty much a pacifist and pretty tolerant, but damn it, sometimes you know...

Mon Nov 07, 10:33:00 AM MST  
Blogger Bill Fleming said...

I think the way we will know if it's really a Muslim terrorist uprising is if lots of people start getting killed.
So far, that doesn't seem to be happening, thank goodness.

Mon Nov 07, 12:32:00 PM MST  
Blogger Bill Fleming said...

A good sign?


Muslims issue fatwa against riots

Sunday, November 6, 2005; Posted: 9:39 p.m. EST (02:39 GMT)

The French Islamic Organisations has condemned the disorder and destruction the unrest has caused.

PARIS, France (Reuters) -- One of France's largest Islamic groups has issued a fatwa against rioting after officials suggested Muslim militants could be partly to blame for violent protests scarring poor neighborhoods around the country.

The Union of French Islamic Organizations (UOIF) quoted the Koran and the Prophet Mohammad to back up the religious edict condemning the disorder and destruction the unrest caused.

Many rioters are of North African Arab and black African descent and assumed to be Muslims. Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy and other officials have hinted Islamist militants may be manipulating angry teenagers to defy the French state.

Muslim residents in the rundown suburbs say rioters' anger is more about unemployment and discrimination than religion. France's 5 million Muslims make up 8 percent of the population and many consider themselves second-class citizens here.

"It is formally forbidden to any Muslim seeking divine grace and satisfaction to participate in any action that blindly hits private or public property or could constitute an attack on someone's life," the fatwa said.

"Contributing to such exactions is an illicit act," declared the edict, which said it was applicable to "any Muslim living in France, whether a citizen or a guest of France."

Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin received Dalil Boubakeur, head of France's Muslim Council and rector of the moderate Grand Mosque of Paris, on Saturday but has not publicly met other Muslim leaders.

Apart from Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy, who brought the UOIF into the Muslim Council at its creation in 2003, most French leaders have kept a critical distance from the group because of its links with the Muslim Brotherhood.

But many influential local Muslim organizations in suburbs such as those experiencing nightly violence are closer to the UOIF than other national Muslim groups. Many imams and mosque groups in the suburbs have called for calm.

Muslims were particularly incensed last week when a riot police tear gas canister landed in a mosque, forcing praying faithful to scatter in panic.

Mon Nov 07, 12:42:00 PM MST  
Blogger EThunk said...

...gotz more thoughts but don't gotz time...maybe tomorrow.

Mon Nov 07, 04:26:00 PM MST  

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